My family goes to church every Sunday... okay, not every Sunday... and, okay, sometimes we go Saturday night (but that counts, too). The point is, we go to church on a regular basis. My wife and I like it. It makes us feel closer to God, more relaxed, more at peace, and like we are raising our kids to be the people who we want them to be. Church was never a problem when Big Brother was little. He was a quiet baby. Big Sister, on the other hand, is not so quiet. About 3 days after she was born, she started making some serious noise and she hasn't stopped since. It's not necessarily a bad thing - she likes to express herself and she wants to make darn sure that she's heard.
She is loud if she is happy and she is loud if she is sad. She is loud if she is hungry and she is loud if she is mad. She is loud in the day, she is loud in the night. But what we have come to understand is that being loud is alright.
Other people don't necessarily feel the same way about Big Sister's volume - not when she is talking, laughing, or crying. She annoys them. And, you know what, that's okay. She's not their baby. So, to the owner of the Chinese Buffet who wanted to seat us at the table where they normally do their bookkeeping, away from the rest of the patrons, I say, "No one puts (my) Baby in a corner!" The real problem in our lives, though, is church. Big Sister used to get pretty frustrated at church. It's not exactly the most 6-month-old friendly place to be, to tell you the truth. But, we go anyway. We go as a family because we that is the way that we choose to celebrate God. She has been much better about it lately. I guess we finally, "beat the Devil out of her." Still, even when she talks, she is loud and we get looks, stares, and glares from the people sitting around us. And so, we search. We search for a church where we can feel accepted for who our family is. It hasn't been easy. Church each week has turned into, at best, a chore and, at worst, a big ball of stress that winds up causing more fights within my family than peace. We recently opted to go to our old church. We had always liked it there and only stopped when gas prices began rising over $4 per gallon (it's a good 30+ minute drive away). We've been back for a while now and were feeling pretty good. Last weekend, we got there a little late. To our surprise, there were no seats that we could immediately see available. Not wanting to disturb anyone, we just kind of sat with the kids in the back by the window. That wound up to be a little confusing for Big Sister and, well, one thing led to another and she started to cry and throw a fit. In an effort to avoid subjecting the congregation to our little banshee angel, my wife brought her into the entryway. This area is separated from the sanctuary by doors. She promptly put Big Sister down on the floor and walked a few steps away. "When you are done throwing that fit, I will..." That type of thing. Well, the usher didn't like that, apparently. He said that people could still hear Big Sister crying and that the way my wife was treating her was "unmerciful." What should my wife do with the screaming baby? Bring her back into the sanctuary and let her cry? Bring her back into the sanctuary and read her the Elmo book she brought in from the car? Neither of these suggestions seemed like the appropriate thing for us to be doing in the sanctuary at that moment. Now, I don't mind when other people keep their crying babies in church. That doesn't bother me any at all. It just seems way more embarrassing when it's mine. What would the usher have my wife do? "Go sit in the car," he told them.
Needless to say, we are sad, frustrated, stressed, annoyed, and looking for a new church.
written by Hubby (@mrmikesings)
Needless to say, we are sad, frustrated, stressed, annoyed, and looking for a new church.
written by Hubby (@mrmikesings)
As a future United Methodist minister needless to say I spent a great deal of time at church. Does your church have a Sunday School or nursery that the kids could go to during the service. In Sunday School they would still learn about God and what you would want them to learn, but in an environment where she could be the adorable child of God that she is.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe do they have a cry room where you could still experience the service and participate, but in an environment that would not disturb those around you?
I have never been a parent, but been a nanny for many years and have taken numerous children to church with me and this is what works for me. Hope you guys figure something out.
Maybe taking an Attachment Parenting approach to BS would help. Comforting her by holding her may make all the difference. Who doesn't like to be held when upset. The usher did not handle this right but by him saying it was "unmerciful" makes me wonder if he is an AP dad and felt that BS may just have needed to be held. Dr Sears has a great site that you could read up on. Good luck on your search for a church.
ReplyDeleteOyi! We have the same problem...but with our 2 1/2 yo! One thing though that has helped lately is we try to sit as close to the alter as possible without being in the front row. I sit as close so the kids can see what's going on. It seems to help them understand what's going on. The older children sit still better without bringing all the toys/books because they can see what's happening.
ReplyDeleteWhen DD gets upset or starts to fuss, I don't always take her out right away. I let her fuss for a while, and then after a couple minutes then I take her out. Only in a strict manner as well, so she knows we don't approve of her behavor. I then do what your wife does. I put her down as soon as we get out of the sactuary and tell her "We will go back in when you can...(quit fussing, talk quietly, ect.) Depending on the weather though I do take her outside and do the same thing.
I think what the usher said to your wife is unacceptable. At least your wife had the common sense to take her out, instead of the parents who have a screaming child and do nothing about it.
Oh, I feel for you guys. As a pastor's wife, people are especially looking to see if my 3 kiddos are well behaved in the service. You know what? They are REGULAR kids!!! Is it normal for kids to sit perfectly still, with nothing to do for one hour or more? No. I'm not sure why we expect that of them at church.
ReplyDeleteOur previous churches have all had nursery care and children's church, but our current church does not. It was a very hard adjustment for them to sit in the service, and actually a hard adjustment for me because I feel like I spend the entire service "managing" them instead of worshiping.
I think it's completely unacceptable what the usher said to you. Remember, Jesus welcomed the little children, and I can't imagine they were all quiet!!!
Hang in there, don't give up-praying you will find a church that will welcome your family with open arms and remember that the Kingdom of God belongs to little ones as well.
Candie, Unfortunately we have been unable to find a place with a Children's mass but the child in question is 16 months old so she would not be able to participate in that even if we had one. There is sometimes a nursery - depending on which mass we attend. But I don't feel comfortable leaving my child with strangers and since it is someone different every time (when it is even open) it is not for us. As for the cry room - well the day in question it was full. And full of people and children who were sitting quietly. Standing in the back where no one else was and where the only person who could hear her was this one usher who was walking through was being the most considerate of the people attending mass that day.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, Truthfully I am a mostly attachment parent but to me that does not mean allowing my child to do whatever she wants. It equally does not mean that she is going to get picked up and shushed and whatever it takes to stop a fit. I was allowing her to throw her fit in a secluded area. The man in question did not throw the "unmerciful" comment in Hubby's face until Hubby told him that Jesus said let the children come.
Amanda, Thank you! We try to sit up close that really helps Big Brother who is five. He understands more. Truthfully just sitting in the sit is helpful for Big Sister. This particular week we had no seat and that made everything harder. The irony is that if the usher had done his job and helped us get a seat in the first place the whole thing would not have happened at all.
Sharon, Thank you so much for your kind comment. I tend to feel like I am wrangling more than worshiping as well. I keep telling myself that as they get older it will get easier. They will need less of me and I can pay attention. :)
We are so lucky to have jr. church during our regular service. I have been to churches where they don't have one, and I definitely felt like I spent more time managing my child (she was about 16 mos at the time too) then paying attention to the sermon.
ReplyDeleteThat usher was incredibly rude. Apparently he's never had children. Children do not sit quietly at all times. In fact, my child rarely sits, let alone does anything quietly!
I had to laugh at anonymous, I'm sorry. Apparently whomever posted that doesn't read your blog. Apparently that person is totally anaware of all the posts you've written about attachment parenting. And I LOVE it when people criticize you and hide behind "anonymous."
Good luck finding a new church. We searched off and on for almost 3 years before we found one that we really liked.
Unmerciful? I just *love* it when the parenting police are on patrol!
ReplyDeleteAs if you don't realize your kid is loud. As if you're brutalizing her... I'm so sorry you had someone treat you rudely. It has happened to me before, and it sucks.
We have been blessed to attend a church that treats children as the number one priority. Nobody bats an eyelash at temper fits, crying babies, talking... it's so wonderful. I hope that you will find a place just a loving.
One thing that helped us as kids was that we always sat in the same place. It was just an added layer of consistency that helped keep everyone calm. (of course, my dad was the guy that rang the bell at the beginning and end of services, so we didn't have to worry too much about anyone taking our seats)
ReplyDeleteI've been very blessed to attend churches that have children's church for the younger ones, and nursery workers that understand my need to get to know them well before letting my children stay in their care. I pray you find a good church home soon!
ReplyDeleteSharon, if your current church does not have nursery or children's church, have you considered starting that as a new ministry? (NOT trying to sound judgmental! Just helpful!) My MIL and I once started a program for younger kids on Sunday evening (don't know why no one else had done it before at that church) and it really turned into a blessing for other moms!
Wow! That usher apparently forgot the part about "train up a child..." or any number of other Biblical principles that teach us to deal with our children with the end result in mind.
ReplyDeleteWe have a noisy 16 month old, too, and for us, the only option is to find a church with a nursery service during the time we go. Most churches I've been to, you can't just hand your child over - you have to fill out a form, label your child and their bags in some way, and then the person picking up the child has to show the other half of the label to get the baby (unless you know the nursery attendant personally and they know you and your baby already!) In recent years, a parent couldn't even come IN the nursery - the child had to be handed over a gate meant to keep people out as much as babies in. :P That way no one could pose as a parent or nursery worker and take a child.
All I'm saying is it's not comfortable to leave your child with total strangers. But it is possible to find a place where the security is high enough that you can be assured no one is going to take your child. And most of the time, the nursery workers volunteer (the rest of the time, I think they are parents coerced into taking a weekend) so they *want* to be there and love children.
Definitely tough, but I'd try it and see what happens. You'll find you can enjoy church, and she'll have fun - especially as she gets into the older classes and gets to make stuff about God and Jesus! :P
Shaun, We really liked it when our church had a children's mass - it was only for Big Brother but it was really awesome!
ReplyDeletePamela, Yeah I love the parenting police too. We simply cannot win with those people though. *sigh*
Kadiera, That is a really good idea. Children like consistency.
Wendy, I really appreicate your prayers. :)
Candice, Oh boy!! Okay here I go. First I have to say that I think those security measures at your nursery are wonderful. Truthfully, I have never seen anything done that well. WHEN (and that is an issue) there is a nursery it is just one person in a room with toys and you can drop your kids off if you want to. Plus, the workers are not screened at all. While I know that it is unlikely someone is going to kidnap my child out of the church nursery I still worry.
However, truthfully, it probably would not matter to me how my nursery was run. We don't leave our kids. We just don't. I have trust issues and I know Big Sister (the only one who is a problem) would HATE it and I would feel so awful the whole time. I also worry that these people do not know who I am and if something happened while mass was going on they would not be able to find me. I feel frustrated and like I do not know what to do. I do not attend theatre performances because it would be inappropriate to take my children. I never felt like that would be the way I feel about church but at the moment I am leaning that way. But, of course, if I wait until my kids are all old enough that it is not an issue how will I ever get them to go without resenting it? Not to mention what will it do to me not to attend for the next two years. *sigh* I wonder if the church I want where my children are welcome is a figment of my imagination.
Wow, you are getting advice on both ends of the spectrum that is for sure! As you know I definitely am on the side of the AP approach mentioned above, and I would also encourage you to read some of what Dr. Sears says, he has some great advice, especially for an AP parent as you say you are. I don't think you'll find him saying that his advice leads to a child never crying, and that he can solve all of your problems. Wouldn't that be nice! I know you feel that never letting a child cry is not AP parenting, but I choose to look at is never letting my child cry without comfort and compassion. There is a huge difference I think, and I guess I just hope maybe Dr Sears would explain it better than I given all the bazillion of books he's written and sold. I do not see comforting a child when they are tantruming as giving into the tantrum, you are giving love and comfort, not the item or issue in question. I know that when I am upset, feel wronged, that some thing is unfair, or I don't understand the things going on around me I want some one to listen and comfort me. Even if I am unjustly mad! :) I get very angry when I think about our insurance changing, but my husband's company had the right to change it and those are the rules. So do I have to just swallow it down and sit on it because those are the rules, or can I be angry and receive sympathy from my friends and family, and vent and throw my fit about it, even if it doesn't change anything? I think our kids feel this way some times and I think they have a right to feel that way. If I can throw a fit (be it a grown up one), why can't my toddler who is still figuring out this world and who is on his side throw a fit? At times my kids don't want to be comforted, in fact my youngest has taken to running off down the hall when he is mad, but I always try, and certainly if one of my kids is coming to me with open arms I would never push that request away just because they are throwing a fit. I try my hardest to react to them how I would want to be reacted to.
ReplyDeleteAs for the part about the idea to "train up a child..." that certainly is a different view point than what Attachment Parenting is. For me, that expression is synonymous with The Pearls and makes me shudder. Literally.
I am sorry that you were made to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in your church, and more than parenting styles it's really about that. We tried to start going to church and using the nursery and I just couldn't do it, so I understand why that is not an option for you. I have very similar feelings on that as you know. I hope you are able to find a place that is the right match for your family that so you can all attend in your comfort zone.
Peraly1979, Well, I think to some extent it has to do with where it is okay to express that anger. And in what manner. Church is an inappropriate place to throw a fit. That is why I took her out and she would have gotten a lot more sympathy from me if she had not in her anger decided to hit me. Truthfully, at home she usually gets more leeway with her fit throwing - because she can let her feelings loose at home. In church or some other public place it is not appropriate - the same would be said for our adult fits (and I throw them too). However, she will get no sympathy from me if she decides to hit me. If you were venting (or throwing an adult fit) to me and decided to hit me would you expect me to stand there and take it? No, of course not and that is something I expect her to learn.
ReplyDeleteIf I think back to when Big Brother was her age he was not even really allowed to throw fits at all. He would get no sympathy from me and no affection until it was done. Hers last longer and so she tends to receive that hug and kiss because she looks so sad and pitiful to me (as opposed to him who gave up after thirty seconds). But the stage in his life where he dealt with his frustrations by throwing fits lasted for a much shorter period of time. Could that be their different personalities? Yes. Could it also be because I give in to her fits a little too much? Maybe.
Pearly1979 - I never realized that people thought that verse from the Bible:
ReplyDelete"Train up a child in the way they should go, and they will not depart from it"
was seen as something synonymous with the Pearls' teaching - if that's true, I can see why you would shudder!
But it's not, it's simply taken out of context sometimes. It just means that what you teach a child now is what they will understand and follow later.
My reaction in that way to what the usher said is that upstatemomof3 was teaching her child that her behavior was unacceptable by separating her from the rest of the family and the service. The usher didn't respect that she was teaching her child a lesson in life; instead, he said something unsympathetic and hurtful to upstatemomof3. :)
And upstatemomof3 - I didn't consider our (possibly) different styles of parenting when I commented, and I'm sorry about that. I think you explained yourself very well in your response!
Wendy, Thanks for your comments. Our church does have a nursery (our kids are too old). The problem is that we just don't have capable workers right now for other programs. Our church is in a time of transition and decisions. My husband and I are already completely stretched and cannot possibly take on another thing right now...nor should we. We also think it's the responsibility of others in the congregation to "step up" and not expect the pastor and his family to start, plan and do everything. It's a real danger in churches, then when the pastor leaves, the church is left in a lurch.
ReplyDeleteI just reread what I wrote and it sounds like I'm saying this negatively (with a tone)-I'm not and please don't read it that way-just matter of factly! :)
You know I'm finding there is a lot of that going around. We were at a CHILDRENS Discovery Center museum and they told us to keep it down. I went off the rails. I truly hate to repress my children, especially in an environment where they should be expressive. To me it's a form of oppression (overly dramatic? maybe but that's just how I feel). I even hate it when someone comments if our dog barks for more than 30 seconds. We are here to live, not to put on pretenses of perfection.
ReplyDeleteI know it's a tough decision about leaving your church but I'm with you, I would start church shopping.
Sadly this very issue is one of the reasons we haven't gone to mass as often recently. We are lucky to have a very family friendly parish, but my in-laws put such a pressure on us to make sure our 8 month old sits still, isn't loud, and doesn't nurse, that I can't handle the stress.
ReplyDeleteOur approach of late has been the following: go to the shortest mass (to increase attention span), leave when he melts down, and more importantly we don't go with my in-laws. We will go to great lengths to insure this last point, but the more I feel judged for my child in church, the worse the experience is.
We also sit in the same place (I saw someone else suggest this and it has helped us a lot). We also pick our mass time based on the least likely time to conflict with nap or eating schedules. If we go to 9:00 for example he is much more likely to be okay for longer than if we go to 11:00 which is bordering on lunch/naptime.
I hope things work out. The usher should really stay out of it and be proud of you for getting to church with 3 small children on a regular basis. Church is a hard thing for many adults to commit to.
Julie and Dean, We have a neighbor who complains if our dog barks - while he is INSIDE. So, yeah I completely get what you are saying. We are trying a different church this weekend. There is little point in driving all that way to attend a church where we were treated that way.
ReplyDeleteG, I think those are all great things. We, unfortunately, are stuck going to mass when it fits in because of Big Brother's hockey schedule. :) The sitting in the same place would probably be helpful to us. And yes the feeling judged is the worst. I can deal with the people who just HAVE to look over and see what she is making noise about because for everyone that scowls there is another one that smiles. But being asked to sit in the car? No, that is too much.
And I say again - as a few of said - Jesus said let the children come he did not say Let the children come only if they are quiet. :)